Humanism in the U.S. and the U.K. (with Andrew Copson)

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Speaker 1: That way assume nothing question everything and start thinking this is the thinking atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

Speaker 3: There is video of this conversation. That YouTube link is in the description box of the broadcast. My guest today, Andrew Copson, is the chief executive of Humanists UK. He is the former president and current ambassador of Humanist International.

He could be heard on the Humanist UK podcast. He is author or co-author of several books, including a book about humanist weddings, humanist funerals. He penned 2019's Secularism, A Very Short Introduction. And he was editor for a book that released last year called What I Believe, Humanist Ideas and Philosophies to Live By. Andrew Copson, great to have you.

Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. Thank you. Speaker 3: What's the climate like in the UK? We're talking Christian nationalism here. Do you have a Christian nationalist movement in your part of the world? Speaker 4: We have the starts of one. I mean, at the moment, certainly on the more extreme right wing edges of our politics, there are people who are taking inspiration and money from across the Atlantic who definitely have a Christian nationalist agenda.

For us, that means reinvigorating the parts of our state that are already pretty Christian. I mean, there's a difference between the UK and the US in that, of course, the US is at least on paper a secular state. The UK is on paper a Christian state. We have clerics in our parliament voting on our laws. Our head of state has to be a Christian, has to be a member of the Church of England. All of our state schools have to have Christian worship every morning. On paper, we've got the sort of state that a Christian nationalist in the US would die for or kill for, probably.

But in practice, of course, those laws have largely been ignored for many decades. What we have now, therefore, is a growing Christian nationalist force that is, rather than revolutionary, if anything, sort of backward-looking and seeking to enforce some of those dead-letter laws in reality.

Speaker 3: It's strange to see the cyclical nature of these things. It's like we're watching the rise of the far-right party in Germany, of all places, Germany, right? But even in the United States, 10 years ago, I was like, oh, the rise of the seculars. We're going to see more humanism, less at least fundamental religiosity. And instead, there was this massive surge, this organized and well-funded surge of And it sounds like that's kind of what you're seeing there. It's

almost like there's a punctuation of evangelical right-wing. Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that that's right. I think that it is, however, a very small and very political phenomenon. So it's true that every few decades or so in the UK, there is this attempt at a sort of political Christian revival of one kind or another. But in terms of British society...

They're really going against the grain. I mean, one big difference between the UK and the US is, of course, for example, churchgoing in our country stands at about 5% of the population. Over half of people say they're not religious. Over 68% of young people say they're not religious. So we're a very non-religious society. It's strange, actually. It's a strange irony that we're one of the least religious societies in the world, together with the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand.

But at the same time, we've got one of the most religious states in the world. And that sort of, whether it is an irony, I don't know, but it's a fact, is I think probably what will protect us against the worst excesses of Christian nationalist politics is that at the end of the day, if politicians from that sort of Christian nationalist right want to win elections, they're going to have to at least pretend that they're not Christian nationalists. And that might be against their own funders,

instincts and interests. But if they want to win power in the UK, they're going to have to keep the Christian bit of their nationalism much more on the down low than in some other countries. Speaker 3: In my part of the country, in the Bible Belt, the three main questions are, what's your name? What do you do for a living? Where do you go to church?

But this would be considered almost offensive in your part of the world, right? Speaker 4: Well, I think, I mean, I don't know if it'd be offensive so much as just bewildering. I mean, you know, you'd be amused if someone asked you a question like that, because You know, it's such a minority pursuit. I mean, it's a real minority pursuit. For example, the church next door to my house has two people in it on a Sunday. And that's not untypical for sort of church attendance in the UK. When I say it's less than

5% of the population, of course, that implies that 95% of people aren't going. And so to ask, you know, what church to go to would be, well, no one would think of asking it. And in fact, I've got friends the other way who've migrated out to the U.S. to, say, work in universities, sometimes in very conservative states. And they were amazed. The first thing some of their colleagues would ask them is, what sort of church would you be going to when you're here? So I can see that there is an enormous difference. I mean, the U.S. is

the outlier in Western countries in this respect. Most Western countries have had a complete collapse of worship and place of worship attendance. Speaker 3: We're getting used to being an outlier now. in a tremendous number of categories. I guess we'll come to that maybe in a minute. I'm going to include the request to have you define humanism in this next question, but I stumbled upon an older clip. You were on a television show called The Big Questions, and there was a

Jesus follower in the audience, and he was talking about one of these dangerous humanists, not just dangerous, but demonic. Talking about, for example... humanist weddings. Speaker 5: And you were saying you thought they were demonic. Speaker 4: I do. Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I do think they're entirely demonic. See, it all goes back to.

Speaker 3: The origins of humanism. Speaker 5: Humanism is the cancer of Thanksgiving. It is the devil's PR. It is a first-class ticket to the sea of wantonness and debauchery.

Speaker 3: So, all right, define it for me. And how would you respond to this idea that somehow we're in league with Lucifer? Speaker 4: Well, the word humanist in the UK, at least, has been used for about the last 150 years to describe someone who is not religious, who bases their morality on a concern for human welfare and the welfare of other sentient creatures, and someone who uses reason and evidence and the organized enterprise of science to understand this world that we're in, in this one life that we have. And

that you know, is a pretty mainstream approach to life in the UK. Opinion polls would show that over a third of people in our country had a pretty well thought out humanist approach to life. So nonetheless, although that is the case, and when you think about humanist ceremonies in a country like Scotland, the largest type of wedding ceremony now is humanist. So it's a mainstream approach to life across the country, not just in people's morals and values and beliefs, but also in the way that we

celebrate live our lives. However, influenced, I think, increasingly by anti-atheist or anti-humanist prejudices from elsewhere in the Christian world, it's true that Christian churches increasingly target us by name. We see that just in general, you know, leaflets about the threat of humanism, the problem of humanism, the sinfulness of humanism. And we see that also in Christian attacks on our political advocacy. So, for example, recently we've been

having medically assisted dying debated in our parliament. And one of the attack lines of the opposition is that this is an atheist humanist idea. It runs against good Christian values. Like I say, in relation to religion in this country, I think those sorts of attack lines have pretty low salience for the average person in the UK. I think the average person in the UK, when they get humanism described to them, says something like, oh, I think that's what I think, rather than, oh, this sounds demonic and evil.

Speaker 3: After my father passed away, we did a series of shows on medical aid and dying and right to die issues. And I expected it, but I was still struck by the really the overarching umbrella themes. that ran through the anti-right to die or death with dignity issues was fundamental religion.

You are playing God. It is up to God. How dare you? Or, you know, we humanists were going to line up people for death panels once we deemed them useless to society kind of thing. That's the narrative that you've been hearing? Speaker 4: Well, in the UK, the religious bit gets hidden in practice.

So no one making a religious political argument in the UK is going to get very far in terms of persuading people to their point of view. So what we've had more and more is even religious groups that are campaigning against assisted dying couch their messaging more in terms of care for the vulnerable or concern about the elderly or concern about disabled people who might be influenced and so on and so forth. The religious argument has been much less clear. When you get behind that and see some of the emails maybe that religious organisations are sending

to their own members and supporters or the things they're saying on a Sunday morning, especially from the Catholic Church, for example, there you do hear the religious case being made. But in practice, even the religious groups in the public square have been making secular sounding arguments however the biggest single predictor in the last parliamentary vote we had on this topic of whether a member of parliament was going to vote for or against assisted dying was still their personal religion so it is still obviously a you know

a very significant factor and of course in our country I don't know what it's like in yours but I imagine it's the same our elected representatives are far more likely to be religious than the general population Oh, yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very much the case. I mean, for whatever reason, I think it's 90 plus percent of our elected officials identify with Christianity. I think much of that is strategic and transactional. And that's a whole other conversation. But I think,

you know, the playing God argument. Really doesn't make any sense because if I was diagnosed with cancer or something else and I go in to get treated, that's an intervention. Like if God wanted me to have the broken arm or wanted me to have cancer or whatever, why am I intervening on my own physical behalf? And I kind of apply that. Is that too clumsy, you think, to apply to death?

Speaker 4: My line would be, doctor, doctor, please play God with me. Cure my cancer. That's what I'm looking for. Speaker 3: Okay, let's talk about interfaith. I just released a presentation where I talk about many of my alliances with faith-based organizations.

We've got a lot of faith-based people who are involved with Americans United for Separation of Church and State. etc. And some of the pushback that I get, a lot of people get it, but some of the pushback is, why in the world are you aligning with people who have aligned themselves with superstition and mythology? In a way, you are enabling falsehoods, debunked mythology that has harmed so many.

I know you do a lot of interfaith work. How do you respond to these types of criticisms? Speaker 4: Well, one of the things I'm committed to as a humanist is human freedom. You know, I want there to be space in our societies for people to come to beliefs freely, for them to be able to believe the things that they believe and practice the beliefs that they have as long as they're not harming the rights of others to the fullest possible extent. I think that's what a free society is. I don't think people can ever

be forced in or out of a belief. And so I think it makes sense to treat belief in some ways, as if it is a sort of relatively fixed characteristic. I mean, of course, every now and again, we meet people that we might persuade. I don't know about you. I don't feel I've had, you know, high success rates persuading religious people to become non-religious, nor have they had any success with me. So I think it is hard to persuade people from one way or another. So I think we have to accept to some extent that religiosity and a diversity of different people of different religious beliefs

is a consequence of a good situation, that good situation being freedom. So if we're going to live inevitably in a free society, in a diverse society, the question for me is not how can I persuade all these people to agree with me? The question for me is how can we live in peace, in good order, in a civilised way with each other? And so I think that dialogue with people who've got different beliefs, not just different religious beliefs, but different political beliefs as well, is absolutely essential for that. And because we are citizens together of

the same democracy and neighbours in the same society, and so living together in the brief life that we have well, I would say it was more important than trying to persuade each other that we were right if those beliefs didn't actually have much of an impact on our neighbors or our lives anyway. Speaker 3: The conversation we have here frames it as shared values over shared beliefs. However, if I am, let's say, adjacent in my life to somebody who is a hardcore Christian

nationalist and they wrote They're anti-LGBT people, and they are anti-immigrant, and they've dehumanized and vilified, and they're part of this vast network of people who, you know, they know nothing about the Constitution, but they claim God wrote it, etc.

That's going to be an alliance. That's going to be a relationship that's going to be very hard for me because we don't share values, and I feel like they are an active participant in tearing down what I'm fighting to protect. Is that unfair? Speaker 4: No, I think that's exactly right, and that's different, isn't it?

I think there are two things when you're encountering someone like that. One is to say, well, if this person has these beliefs in private, OK, I'm not going to try and interfere with them and knock on their door and try and change their mind, but I am going to take on their arguments in the public square and try to defeat them, because bad ideas like that need to be defeated, and they certainly need to be prevented from taking power and having control over all the apparatus of the state. And the second thing, I suppose, is to say, Also, it is a brief life and I

do get the choice of who I associate with and who I speak to. And that's not someone that I'm going to want in my life or to spend time with. And that's fine too. I think that we can seek to make common ground with people, find common ground. We can try to act on the basis of shared values.

And I think the overlap of values is considerable. I think it's decreasing. I think everywhere in the complicated West with our polarised media society is polarising. So I think shared values do seem to be a diminishing part of the Venn diagram, but I think the overlap is still there and still worth preserving. But ultimately, I'm not going to spend my time with someone who believes the complete opposite to everything I do. I have no connection with at all, and I don't think it'd be reasonable for

anyone to expect me to. So I think that that's perfectly legitimate. Speaker 3: More with Andrew Copson about humanism in the United States and the UK coming up next. Thank you so much for supporting me and the broadcast on Patreon. You know, an example of how it makes a difference is that I just renewed the license that I use for music,

licensed music for the broadcast. If it had not been for my patrons, that would not be possible. And so it's a big deal. And I so appreciate your support. They're changing the model from a per upload to a monthly subscription. The numbers should pan out about the same way.

But if you want to be a big part of supporting me and the show, thank you. Go to patreon.com slash Seth Andrews. Speaking here with Andrew Copson, who is the chief executive of Humanist UK. On your website, you have a section for non-religious pastoral support work. You mentioned you're a humanist officiant. So am I. It's funny. A lot of times I will go into a situation where

religious people find out I've been invited to, you know, officiate the ceremony and they're like, what are we in for? What's he going to say? Oh my God, you know, and they flip out. And then when I show up and I make it about the moment and the couple and making memories and sharing life and all those types of things, at the end, everybody smiles and breathes a sigh of relief and says, wow, that was actually really amazing.

Have you ever had anybody raise an eyebrow at you and then afterwards they were like, oh, that was actually kind of wonderful? Speaker 4: Definitely, definitely. I mean, humanist ceremonies are pretty mainstream in the UK, especially in parts of the UK where we do significant legal marriages. People are often surprised, for example, that we do 20% of the legal marriages in Northern Ireland.

It's so mainstream that even in Northern Ireland, a country that is wracked by religious. Speaker 3: Divisions, I mean, in my mind, of course, this is a stereotype because I'm so far removed, but I just picture people going into these large cathedral-like structures to tie the knot in the UK. It is not.

Speaker 4: It's not a stereotype necessarily. At least it wasn't until quite recently in Northern Ireland. The change has been very rapid in Northern Ireland, but it has come. And in other parts of the UK, humanist ceremonies have been very popular. Speaker 3: For a long time. Speaker 4: So most people have been to one. And these days. Speaker 3: But you're right.

Speaker 4: I mean, there is often a skeptic, you know, religiously inclined skeptic in the crowd who afterwards is very pleased, very impressed. I was once asked to lead the National Health Service National Memorial for NHS workers who died during the COVID-19 pandemic. And there were a huge number of people highly skeptical about it. I don't know what it's like in the US, but in the UK, a lot

of healthcare workers are quite religious, either because they are from a sort of immigrant background, where that's more like, you're more likely to be religious in the UK, if that's your background, or for other reasons. And so I started the ceremony, got up there in this flower garden in London, where they were having this national memorial, and saw a lot of sort of sceptical faces in the front row. And I was really pleased by the fact that at the end, you know, people were coming up and saying that was really inclusive. You know, there was nothing there I disagree with that was very warm it

was so good that it was based on you know human values so i think that that is i mean that's that's to some extent the point of of humanist ceremonies of course is they're built on authentic in principle shareable human experience and they're so personalized to either the person who's died or the people who are marrying or in this case the the health care workers that we lost during the pandemic that everyone can share that i think and that's the space that we hold as humanist celebrants i'm sure you'll you have the same experience.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's nice to not be tethered to the sermonizing that so often accompanies, you know, it's almost like they go to the wedding. and the funeral store and they choose the religious version. And I've seen people give whole sermons and altar calls, calling for people's salvation at weddings and funerals. It's not uncommon in the United States, Andrew.

And it just blows my mind. I feel like they hijack this ceremony and To sell, you know, a larger or different agenda. But, you know, being able to do so from a human to human perspective is pretty amazing. This is a controversial one. You can tackle it or skip it. But we see a lot of warnings about the rise of Islamists in the United States. We've had some Muslims. who have been elected to high office. I see them as humanists because the words and behaviors that

we have witnessed have been about everybody. They're not showing up trying to install Sharia law and turn us into a Muslim nation, etc. But one of the things that I have heard echoing out of the UK is a warning about the rise of Islamists. You know, these communities, the influx of Muslims, they want to create many states that have their own laws outside of accountability or governance.

of the larger area, the larger region, and there's a big concern. Oh my God, they're infecting us all. How do you respond to that or educate me as to what's really going on, at least in a nutshell? Is that even possible, Andrew?

Speaker 4: The vast majority of British Muslims are not Islamists, of course. We have a problem with Islamist ideology, and it is a serious one in our society. There are attempts by Islamist inspired groups to gain control of the agenda in some of our public schools, in aspects of our public life.

And it certainly is the case that there is growing lobbying as well as internal policing in some communities that is Islamist inspired. But as you say. The vast majority of Muslims in general are not part of that movement.

And in fact, Muslims who enter democratic public life have been very notably not of that tendency. So, for example, in London, we have a Muslim mayor, Sadiq Khan, and he is probably, yeah, I'd say he was almost certainly the most liberal mayor London has ever had in every way, on every policy.

Speaker 3: So are you having conversations about the forced hijab and the rights of women and which court will hear a case, etc. Speaker 4: Yeah, so there are, like I say, there is growing pressure in some areas. There is recently, for example, a trend of two or three schools to attempt to make hijab or other religious clothing compulsory within schools. The current government in the UK has said that that is not permissible.

We've joined the calls to make sure that that isn't permitted, and it's not. I mean, it is unlawful for schools to try to do that. We have had situations where People with an Islamist agenda have tried to change the curriculum in state schools on sex education or on religious education or on personal education. In that, I don't know what you'd call the subject in the US, but it's sort of the education that deals with, you know, your education about your rights and freedoms and about sexual issues

like consent and so on and so forth. And there have been attempts to change the curriculum there. They've been resisted. But there are certainly a significant population of people in the UK who would like more Islamist policies to be adopted by public authorities locally and nationally. And the way to defeat that is in democratic argument to say that that is not how it should be and continue to

wage that campaign. I don't see it as any different from Christian nationalism, really. Christian nationalism, Islamist extremism... hard right, hard left, whatever it might be that I might see as a threat to liberal rights and freedoms and to the humanist agenda, I'm going to argue against. And Humanist UK is always going to argue against as well. Now, there is an added problem to the argument against Islamism, which is, of course, that sometimes you find yourself with

fellow travellers who are themselves from the hard right, you know, the Christian nationalist or the white nationalist crowd. And that means it calls for very sensitive handling and talk Because if, for example, you're wanting to, let's pick two humanist campaigns that have taken off in a lot of Europe over the years. If you're wanting to prevent non-medical circumcision, let's say,

or the exemptions from animal rights laws that allow ritual slaughter for halal or kosher food, both of which are laws, things that are legal in the U.K., You're doing that as a humanist organisation out of a desire to alleviate animal suffering or out of a sense of the human rights of children to protect their own bodily integrity. But you'll find yourself in bed with and fellow travellers with hard right white nationalists who are trying to whip up

hatred against Muslims. As, you know, in either of those cases, there are such people. And so I think we just need to be very careful. I think the risk is that people silence themselves because they're so worried about... being falsely accused of being racist or being tarred with the same brush as the hard right white nationalists are. And I think that that's a risk and we need to avoid it. But again, I think the only way to avoid it properly to mitigate it is to continue to

speak with integrity from positive principles of freedom, of human rights, of secular democracy. And those values, I think, make it clear that we have a positive case against Islamism. It's not a racist case against Muslims. And as I said, Most Muslims aren't Islamists.

Speaker 3: We try to make that distinction. It's nuance is nearly impossible these days, but the difference between what they call Islamophobia and anti-Muslim bigotry, right? Islam being a claim or an idea, Muslims being people. I can hear activity that's sort of ramping up behind you. So we'll get ready to draw to a close. I hear, yeah, it sounds like there's a break room or something right next to you.

Speaker 4: There is a very noisy office of another organization next to me, which is like a sort of monkey den. Speaker 3: On my end, normally from a home studio, it's usually somebody who has a lawnmower or a weed eater. They come out right outside my window, but it's all good.

It's no problem. So humanism is how we fix the world, right? I mean, we're not drawing... our hopes or our powers from on high. We think we are right here. All we have is each other. We got to figure this out together. And I don't know, some people would say that that's very, so human centric as to be egotistical.

We're trying to play God, et cetera, but I see it as a position of humility. Just put a bow on it for me, humanists and the world. What do you think? Speaker 4: I think you're right that it's a position of humility. I think it is the taking up of a burden. I don't think it's the arrogant assumption of power to say that human beings are the only ones that can fix it. I think it's the opposite. I think it is a humble position. It's to say, if it can be fixed, we're the only ones who can fix it.

And I think the if is as important as everything else. And I think that humanism, you know, humanist approach to life without a commitment to shoulder the burden of humanity in global terms is not a humanism worth a name. So I do agree with you about that. And You know, many humanists have spoken very metaphorically about the darkness of the universe in which we provide our own light or, you know, many, many visual metaphors are available. But I

think that it is in many ways just an inevitable consequence of being a social animal that you wake up in the morning and you can't help as you move through your day unless you're a completely asocial billionaire or something removed from normal society. to notice that you have the opportunity to make life better for other people all day on a daily basis. And that if you take it, the world is a better place. And I think in those small ways, as much as in any bigger ways, we find the benefits of humanism and a humanist commitment.

Speaker 3: And I think one thing that often gets overlooked as we are outward focused is it's good for me to be a humanist. It feels good. It's good medicine. It keeps me from losing my mind in this chaotic world, right? Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fortifying. It gives you a greater sense of confidence, of resilience, of agency, of purpose. It allows you to allocate significance to the things that happen to you in

this life and meaning that way. And it does, it makes you feel, I think you can take a more sure-footed attitude towards life and the things that life brings you if you adopt this humanist approach. Speaker 3: How can people find you and your organization and your work, my friend?

Speaker 4: We're online, humanists.uk, and we have our podcast, the Humanist Heritage podcast that we've launched just recently, and of course, available in all good bookstores. Speaker 3: I appreciate so much the work that you are doing. I know I've been very focused, necessarily so, on what's happening within the borders of the United States. It's crazy here, and I'm sure much of the rest of the world is raising its eyebrow and Wondering if we've all lost our minds. Andrew, please help spread the word that some of us, the resistance exists.

Speaker 4: I do spread that word, actually. I mean, I admire your work and your podcast enormously, but I admire the work of all American humanists, atheists, freethinkers and others who are really constituting, I do believe this, the resistance in your country. right now in what is a not just a precarious and fragile but really a quite dystopian situation so i mean our agm the annual general meeting of humanists uk just two years ago passed a unanimous resolution of solidarity with american humanists that we sent on to various national organizations and i can assure you you're in our thoughts.

Speaker 3: You are much appreciated, my friend. I will link to your organization in the description box. Andrew Compson, Chief Executive of Humanists UK. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Speaker 4: Thank you. Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter. For a complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and t-shirts featuring The Thinking Atheist logo, links to Atheist pages and resources, and details on upcoming Freethought events and conventions,

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